Why Heavyweights Can Never Be Good | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

(PLEASE READ BEFORE WATCHING) Apologies for the volume jumpscare during the outro (starts at around 13:30). Won’t happen again. Please be wary headphone users.

I think the biggest thing holding heavies back is pretty ass recoveries. It means that despite their high durability on paper due to their weight, they don't actually always live that long.

Something I'd like to mention is that although Heavies are designed to be tanky and live long, due to a typically poor disadvantage state and generally bad recoveries they have a tendency to die earlier than a lot of the rest of the cast simply for getting comboed or hit off stage once

I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion about why Bowser tends to be placed higher relative to the other heavies, and what we can learn from that about how to buff heavies in a balanced way. Speed is brought up a lot - Bowser outranks about 3/4 of the cast on the ground and in the air. Having a frame 6 OOS option that puts opponents in disadvantage shifts how he can play the game as well - it's a perfectly viable strategy not to strike first but bait your opponent to strike first in a way slightly unsafe on your shield. His powerful 6 frame command grab should also make opponents uncomfortable shielding when Bowser is approaching from the air. I think this versatility in gameplan really helps him excel where other heavies do not. Of course as a heavy he still has to deal with heavy combos, giant hurtboxes, and punishable recoveries, although his up b does offer more mixup than many people expect.

I’ve always wondered why the devs insist on giving heavies bad recoveries. What’s the point of being heavy if you just get gimped at 30 like DK and Ganon do? The only heavies that don’t get regularly edgeguarded are Ridley and Bowser to a lesser extent.

Problem is Sakurai likes to arbitrarily give them weaknesses, as well as adding character and whatnot that really renders the heavy’s weight useless, like Kazuya’s whole TOD being way easier on Heavies and making their one big strength not as useful while also making their weaknesses bigger.

Ridley could deadass be a very solid heavyweight if they MADE HIM AN ACTUAL HEAVYWEIGHT. Ridley has pretty decent mobility, good normals and unlike the other heavies his damage isn't THAT insane, instead relying more on combos/pressure. He doesn't have quite the same "make 1 mistake and you're dead" style, he's more healthy in that way. But for some bizarre reason they decided to make him lighter than Samus despite having the biggest hitbox in the game, which means he gets all of the disadvantages of being a heavyweight with none of the upsides. It's so sad.

Htwo made a video about this topic 4 years ago, where he analyzed 2 heavies from Rivals of Aether, which has heavies that are actually viable, but not overpowered. In short, they have ways to overcome their weaknesses, but not remove them.

Most heavyweights should have good recoveries because what's the point of being heavier to live longer if you can get cheesed offstage at 20%. And I mean good as in distance, so still exploitable like Dedede's or K Rool's. The heavies in Rivals of Aether are well designed and proof that heavies can be good in platform fighters. They just need to be less extreme in high strength and low speed.

If we look at Bowser and Incineroar, Bowser is good because he lacks some weaknesses that a lot of other superheavies have, and Incineroar is good because while he does have the traditional weaknesses of a superheavy, he has an amazing moveset and is rewarded for overcoming those weaknesses. Both of these characters set great building blocks for what a viable heavyweight should have, and if there is to be a high-tier or top-tier superheavy at some point in the lifespan of Smash as a series, it’s more than likely it would require both of these bases to be applied, unless you’re Brawl Dedede of course

Kazuya:are you sure about this?

One problem i have is how awful most heavy recoveries are. Why design them to live to higher percents if they die after they get blown downward by a beeeze more than once?

What's unfortunate is the fact that the Big Heavies usually CRUSH new players, casual players, and even mid-level players in a poor online environment. This leads to a comparatively large swath of the community loudly complaining to nerf them, and/or a hesitancy for the devs to make them as good as any other fighter since they'd be potentially alienating the largest part of their active player base

The issue is that Plattform-Fighters are just bound to be more Movement-Centered, most heavies don”t have that movement. Make them quicker or give them interesting features that cover the lack of movement, like Rivals of Äther did. Etalus comes to mind first, she can freeze the ground and abuse the ice on the stage for her own good, get a armor out of the ice and has a REALLY good recovery

As MockRock said in his video, instead of giving heavyweights more power they could also be given much more range on their attacks to compensate for their poor mobility

Bowser is on the cusp of being good, quite fast speed despite their weight and with tough guy, he's almost there.

13:23 No idea if you ever plan to cover Rivals of Aether or even Project M/P+ but I think both games show how heavy weights are done right. They need tools that help with getting zoned and have good movement options. Outside of universal movement options like wave dashes, Bowser has a fireball projectile over flame breath that's charged over time, not instant. Ganondorf has both Float as a neutral B and down b that refreshes 1 jump when used (like in Melee) Ike has quick draw which stops all momentum when you press B again for the actual attack, otherwise not activating the quick draw attack will just give you a good boost of speed. Dedede has side B for projectiles and Down B gives Dedede burst of momentum. And DK is just nuts lol. Etalus from Rivals has his ice breath that id applied to the stage to help with his poor speed. They all still have the fundamental issues of heavy weights but are given the proper tools to compete.

The biggest reason is because heavies would dominate casual play if they were any better. The game is balanced for beginners that don’t play optimally. However, as players make less and less mistakes speed and frame data gets more and more influential on the game because you get more opportunities to initiate advantage and evade disadvantage

I personally think it would be a fun idea to give heavy weights tons more shield damage. Like for example, even a slightly charged boswer/ganon fsmash could break a full shield. It gives them an interesting niche by wanting to actually attack shields, and makes landing their big goofy moves (like warlock punch) after they break shields a realistic win condition. Would it be OP? probably, especially in casual. Would it be fun to watch and play competitively? I would think so

I feel like it would actually be very easy to make heavyweights viable and fair at top level. It just wouldn't be fun for casuals.