2012 - The Paris Double-Blind Violin Experiment

I have a big problem with this assumption that Amati, Stradivarius, Guarneri all have better sounds than modern instruments. All these makers come from the Baroque period where the violin was played quite differently. All baroque violins today are already modified. Here is the list. 1. Held differently 2. Tuned differently 3. Different length of neck with different angle. 5. We use far greater string pressure. 5. Different Bass bar. (This is usually due to all the above factors), (Changing the Bass bar sometimes means retuning the plates, which means there has been modifications to the thickness of them). 6. We use different Bows, (and better). Tourte invented these in about 1785. This means that the instruments featured in this documentary were designed for an entirely different use and sound and any credit to their tone etc is purely random. They never made the sounds required for todays admiration and therefore looking for a designed sound by a maker who never heard or experienced what we expect from a violinist today, is purely a wild goose chase in my opinion. Below are some references which may be of interest. At the beginning of the 18th century, at the very height of the Baroque period, the demands on musicians began to change. As music became more of a public event, the performance spaces grew larger, along with the size of the orchestra. The repertory, too, began to include concertos. And then, as the Classical style began to emerge, the balance of the orchestra began to change, with an increased emphasis on brass. (http://stringsmagazine.com/the-role-and-romance-of-the-bass-bar/) Baroque 415 Hz 1600 - 1750 17th and 18th centuries. They favored a standard pitch of about 422-423 Hz.  Current 440 Jambe de Fer (Lyons, 1556) “ ...it is supported by the arm” Praetorius (Wolfenbüttel, 1614/20) “...it is held on the arm” Prinner (Salzburg, 1677) “... the violin must be held firmly with the chin” Falck (Nürnberg, 1688) “Place the violin below the left breast, the instrument should lean a little downward towards the right.” Merck (Augsburg, 1695) “One should hold the violin nicely straight under the left breast, leaving the arm free, not resting against the body/belly” Speer (Ulm, 1697) “The remainder, how one holds the violin correctly in the hand, rests it on the breast, leads the bow ... that a trusted teacher must show his student” Playford (London, 1667)“... the lower part of the violin must be rested on the left breast a little below the shoulder” Matteis, according to Roger North 1670's “... rested his instrument against his short ribbs” Lenton (London,1693) “... as I would have none get the habit of holding an Instrument under the Chin, so I would have them avoid placing it as low as the Girdle” Monteclair (Paris, 1711/12) “To hold the violin securely, the tail-piece is placed against the neck just under the left cheek.” Corette (Paris, 1738) “... he must place his chin on the violin” Crome (London, 1740) “let the back part rest on your left Breast. The best way is to stay it with your Chin” Francesco Geminiani (London, 1751) “The violin must be rested just below the Collar-bone, turning the right-hand Side of the Violin a little downwards” Leopold Mozart (Augsburg, 1756) “The violin is placed against the neck so that it lies somewhat in front of the shoulder and the side on which the e-string lies comes under the chin, whereby the violin remains unmoved in its place even during the strongest movements of the ascending and descending hand.” Herrando (Paris 1756) “The tailpiece must come under the chin, being held by it there, turning the head slightly to the right.” L'Abbé le fils (Paris, 1761) “The violin should be placed on the collar-bone in such a way that the chin rests on the side of the fourth string” (http://www.baroque-violin.info/vhold1.html) It's hard to imagine an instrument as staid as the violin going through any evolutionary changes. Most of our modern violins are so standardized that if the string length is off by just a couple of millimeters, an experienced player will notice it. But early violins were not made to such standardized measurements. And one huge change that happened in the early 1800s is that the length of neck (and thus the string length) became longer! Almost no violins made before about 1830 retain their original necks. That includes Stradivaris, Guarneris, and Amatis. (http://blog.feinviolins.com/2015/06/your-violin-neck-used-to-be-shorter.html) The original violins built by Stradivari and Amati lacked the kind of string pressure that is standard in violins today.  This is due to the lengthening and deepening of the bass bar, its design evolving in the 18th Century.  At that time, the tension of the violin’s strings was about equal to a weight of 63 pounds, while nowadays the tension is equivalent to more than 80 pounds.  Consequently, bass bars on older instruments have been replaced, as modern violinmakers can now construct bass bars at the same quality as the original masters. (https://go2article.com/article/violin-bass-bar/) The procedure outlined here is the same as that to which most classic period instruments were subjected in the 19th century when the broad, low angled baroque necks were replaced with modern necks.  The scroll, which must be preserved as part of the original instrument, is grafted onto a block of wood which will be used to form the new neck. (https://www.andrewcarruthers.com/replacing-a-violin-neck/) We use Toute Bows nowadays which requires a different technique, gives a better sound and enables more string pressure if needed. The virtuoso Viotti made a sensation playing his Stradivari violin and turned to Tourte to design a bow which could bring out all the violin's interpretive powers as well as its sheer projection in large halls. (http://ervinviolins.com/tourte_bows.shtml)

What was the end result? What conclusion did they come up with?

After this documentery I am asking myself why I was not given the possibility to judge myself and why I was not given the result.

Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for doing such rigorous research in the name of music! Looking forward to reading your findings.

Here are the results : http://www.lam.jussieu.fr/Membres/Fritz/HomePage/Vincennes/FritzEtAl_PNAS_public.pdf

This proves that the violins produced by the old masters ARE different -- they're old.

i would have appreciated that this video could have been more fast paced, and with a better and clear presentation on what the results were, and the process to be told more clearly.

26:33 Pretty much sums it all up. 

Trips and falls and destroys all the violins while blind.

I wish I knew those new violin names especially the N5.

The odds for the NEW violin makers who made these to have their own secrets and for those secrets to be lost due to business/greed is >0.

The guy at the end of the video is right. How would those new violins sound when they reach their 300th year or less? Is it something that has to be re-researched for another 300 years?

The outcome is rather logic. A good violin is good, irrespective of its age. Age does not make a violin good by itself. Craftsmanship and the right material is what makes a violin good. The art of violinbuilding did not go lost with the death of Stradivari and Guarneri. But as to the test: Every violin needs its own set up. Were the violins all individually prepared to get their best sound out or did they all get the same Dominants and the same brand of rosin and the same bow? I was just wondering about that variable.

they all say i dont know and im not sure. how can this be really accurate on the time that its your turn to choose. they all sound close to each other. note projection from these violins varies in each stroke.

top notch violinists are like top notch racing drivers.  They race what they brung.   In other words it is the mechanic or luthier who determines which machine performs better...

What's the difference?  Probably the tone of the wood.  It's possible to make the same instruments from the same wood and still have variations.

Very interesting

Who made the Violin no. 5?

It look like one of the people running test at one point moved a bridge after one test.

How are they going to see the fingerboard tape with those glasses on?