Tolkien's Problem with Dune

Well Tolkien was more of a spider guy than a worm guy.

Also, Anakin Skywalker was not a big Dune fan.

I like how she holds that cup the whole time but never drinks out of it.

I think there is a missing link between Tolkien and Herbert that has value being explored; author Michael Moorcock. I would say in many ways Tolkien was an author of an earlier time of classic certainties and reassurances that evil will always be its own undoing. Herbert was an author that in many ways was re-telling the story of 'The New World' (the spice trade, the influence of other nations and religion on a different land) but with many of the more jaded mindset that was relevant in the Americas. Then there was Michael Moorcock, who was a major force in the sci-fi and fantasy world of the 60's and 70's that updated and flipped many of the genre escapist stories and turned them on their head. Moorcock himself met and spent time with Tolkien, and though respected he has voiced his opinion of how he found fault with Tolkien's classic trope of "trust the old man who knows best" way of thinking that was rather traditionally English for the time. I honestly believe if there was an Elric of Melniboné series of movies (which there absolutely could be), he would sit close enough between these two stories to value being spoken about. And the fact that he is not spoken about more is a failing of literature.

I suspect that Tolkien as a deeply spiritual and religious person was appalled by Herbert’s profound cynicism with regard to religion in Dune, treating it as nothing more than a way of manipulating and controlling the masses. Although there is no trace of any formal religion in Tolkien’s world it is “charged with the grandeur of God” as Hopkins would have it.

well to be honest, Dune is realy dry...

When i was 14 and strolling around i literally found a book laying beside some rubble written "Dune" on it. I just picked it up to read it later. And so began my life long love for science fiction. :)

i love how polite he was about not liking it. it's like shorthand for "it's not my cup of tea, but i shan't elaborate further lest my own view on the matter corrodes those of others who may otherwise find great entertainment from within its pages. my writing philosophy is: when you're inspired to write a specific scene, or a specific event, a specific anything, do it. just write. don't worry about plot or pacing, don't worry about spelling or grammar, doon't worry about anything other than what is happening on the scene. a story is made from a book, a book is made from a world, a world is made from events, events are made from scenes. to create your world, you must first create your scene. find that lynchpin that the whole story rests on, and remove it. examine it closely, explore every groove, every chip, every crevice. know your story through this pin. let it be your eye into another world, and use it to carve out the destiny you seek for the characters you write about. to build a world, you must first put things in it. let there be light.

Tolkien was correct in saying that he could not be a good critic as a competitor, and that was not his role or place. That was truly the best take, because he knew he would be unfairly biased.

My take goes as follows. Tolkien was a devout Christian. The very idea of breeding a Messiah would have shocked him to his very core, perhaps even disgusted him. The supernatural doesn't exists in the universe of Dune. No god in the sky, no angelic beings, no multitude of spirits. Every fantastic thing that happens is the result of hard work by humans with no assistance or intervention from beings on high. Dune is materialistic. The Dune saga is about looking forward towards a perilous future. Tolkien's legendarium is about looking back at a golden age. The world of Dune is grounded in technology. >Everyone< in the stories has a "Mind of machines and wheels." Were Saruman a wise and powerful human being, he would have fit into the power structures portrayed in the Dune saga. We all know how Tolkien felt about technology, complex machines, even Saruman himself. I am not at all surprised he hated Dune.

If I remember correctly, Tolkien strongly disliked modern technology - he hated cars and machines and even used industrialisation and technology as a way to portray destruction in LOTR. And he was devoutly Catholic. There's hardly any wonder he would practically hate a story, rooted entirely in materialism and focused so much on technological advances.

I can't thank you enough for an actually well thought-out, detailed and well considered video, instead of rage-bait drama. Subscribed.

I know in my brain LOTRs was published in ‘54 but my heart has a hard time coming to terms with the fact that Tolkien and Herbert were contemporaries. It’s like how Dali and Picasso lived far into the 1900’s… just doesn’t compute lol

Love the angle! Yes, J.R.R. Tolkien was very particular, and spiritually minded. However, he was a huge fan of trees! In Dune, there are no trees! How can one write a fantasy without the beauty of trees? I'm sure that was it.

Thank you for not actually spoiling anything! It is so hard to find Dune analysis videos that don't go all the way to the end.

Congratulations on the 100k, here's to 200k. Excellent framing and pacing, I only wish you'd allude to some of the philosophical outcomes of their perspectives. Keep up the great work.

Not enough trees.

“Tolkien didn’t like cars” why did I immediately think you meant the Pixar film? Timeline issues assign, that was a funny visual.

Tolkien hated a lot of things, he created multiple work of art but taking his opinions as gospel is ridiculous.

You have a truly wonderful way with words and the format and execution of this video is refreshing, intelligent, and charming. You create a warm and comfortable atmosphere for thoughts around the subject, and I really appreciate the time you put in to create that. Keep up the good work.