Quantity vs. Quality: Would Germany Have Fared Better Without Tigers and Panthers?

Germany did not have the manpower to staff "quantity" They built heavy tanks to offer max protection to their highly trained crews.

I think that a lot of people here are misunderstanding the role of heavy tanks during WWII, and the way tanks in general were classified. German heavy tanks like the Tiger I & II were not not meant to be general purpose tanks like a modern MBT. They were designed with a specific purpose in mind and that was to be an offensive tank to break through heavily defended enemy lines. They were to punch holes in enemy lines paving the way for lighter, and more mobile medium tanks would push on through to exploit the gaps like the cavalry of old. While the mediums did that, the heavies would be pulled back to prepare for the next offensive. Of course, that was on paper and Germany eventually found itself on the defensive and the heavies now had to be used more frequently and more like a medium.

I find the argument made by many historians that it was a mistake to invest in Panzer V and VI hilarious. But they ignore that the German high command knew very well that they would never win a quantity war against the allies. Numbers are a great advantage and every army will always try to win in numbers, but if you don't have numbers, you have no choice but to invest in quality and pray to be enough...

Not enough fuel + not enough soldiers = emphasis on quality over quantity

Most Tigers were not destroyed by the enemy but by their own crews after they broke down, got bogged down or ran out of fuel. The Panther came too late and at a time when Germany was running out of certain metals needed to produce high-grade armor and working parts of the engine resulting in major problems with engine life and catastrophic armor failures. It also consumed large quantities of fuel which Germany sorely lacked.

Panthers were not expensive. They only cost a bit more than a Pz IV. Tigers, King Tigers, JagdTigers, etc. were completely unnecessary. A gentleman at the Tank Museum described the JagdTiger as an affront to logisticians everywhere. I agree with him.

Tigers and Panthers were mostly fine. Tigers were rushed into battle and sure they may have broken down a lot, but their early arrival meant they allowed the Germans to have an advantage when the war turned defensive for them in 1943. Early Panthers were also rushed had a lot of problems, but the later variants had most of these problems sorted out and they were pretty reliable. The biggest problem for Germany at this point was lack of fuel. Large majority of Tiger and Panther losses in 1944-45 were basically the Germans launching some form of offensive with their panzer spearheads, then they ran out of fuel midway and had to abandon all the tanks.

Being a resource intensive tank has nothing to do with being the apex predator, which they were. The P IV, Stug and smaller jagdpanzers were quite capable tanks, but Germany was short of personnel, fuel, technical support and logistics support, so large numbers of anything was impossible. Their only option was quality. Its the same way NATO thought in the Cold War.

The Germans did everything they could to increase kill ratio to offset their shortage of men and equipment. They did very well at this effort.

Germany probably performed as well as it could have. And a lot better than it should have, considering the French Armed Forces were considered to be the best in the world at the start of the war, with both France and the UK being better equipped and more motorized than Germany ever managed during the war. Germany‘s strategic position was just too disadvantageous, especially after the US joined the war and started supplying the Soviets.

Even if Germany could have cranked out thousands of additional Panzers, there was the issue of staffing them with competent drivers. In Thomas Anderson's books on the Panther and Tiger tanks, he quoted written reports by tank commanders, from the latter part of WW II, where the issue of incompetent tank drivers were a significant factor with the mechanical breakdowns of the Panzers. The commanders were pleading with HQ for better trained or competent tank drivers.

My vote would be to produce the Panther, but nothing bigger. The Panther was capable to handle anything on the battlefield during WW2.

Superb presentation: both in accuracy of explanatory analysis (in actual historicity) and realistic historical evaluation.

Can hardly call them quality when the suspension used to clap on them. And breakdowns were a massive problem....

The overworked engine and transmission in the big cats lead to many being abandoned due to mechanical issues , which lead to a reduction in their overall capabilities as " breakthrough tanks or firemen " , then because of the allied bombing the German/axis railway system , transporting such tanks became an issue , added to the fact that towards the end of WW2 , the quality of the (tank) armour was reduced , this also as a result of allied bombing factories that supplied components for the tanks

You build more tanks, you not only need more crews to man them but you also need more supporting personnel and vehicles to make them function. Panzergrenadiers, fuel, ammo, maintenence, engineers, Flak, field kitchen, medical, signals etc. Armour cannot function properly on it own in a vacuum. That's why the hastily formed panzer brigades in autumn 1944 failed. Because they didnt have sufficient supporting echlons. So more Panzer IVs and Stugs would not have served the Germans any better. 10,000 enemy tanks, assault guns and tank destroyers knocked out by less than 2,000 Tigers says it all.

All things considered German going for higher quality AFVs makes perfect sense. Germany was hopelessly over matched VS the Soviet when it came to man power and industrial capacity. Furthermore, when you add in British and Commonwealth capacity. Germany had no other choice than to try for individual Tank superiority. Then declaring War on the United States well that was insane.

Well done and researched nice work!

The panther was a bloody good tank and very effective it was a shortage of resources that was the problem especially the rare earths that made the quality of steel inferior to earlier in the war .the stug was exceptionally good as well but it wasn't a assault weapon like the tiger and panther

an outstanding presentation