Looter Shooter Devs Still Don't Understand Loot | Design Delve

Really hope you enjoyed this episode gang :D Most looter-shooters get this wrong but SOME have got it right.. can you guess which ones I'm talking about? ;) Just a reminder that if you love this show we are entirely supported by your kind support over on patreon! So if you wanna feed Ludo a treat consider checking it out! Patreon Link: https://www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup

There's also one overlooked but non-trivial factor: fun. I enjoy grinding for better gear in Monster Hunter because engaging in the gameplay is itself a reward. It doesn't feel like a grind because the core game design is so satisfying, the path to the reward feels good the whole time. It ultimately doesn't matter how well the gears of the loot machine mesh together if the gameplay fills the space in between with unpleasant grit.

I think Monster Hunter is a game series that has rewards that combines substantive and reflective aspects - every gear is a reminder of the monster you had to hunt to gather the materials you needed to craft it, and is also a way to become stronger to fight bigger and tougher monsters.

In X-COM (2011 one and its sequel), your soldiers don't get a nickname as recruits. They need to survive at least a couple encounters, then they get one assigned automatically after ranking up — and you can THEN change it. Similar for visual armor decorations, i believe (mods fog memory). Under occasionally brutal conditions of higher difficulty levels of those games on Ironman, the substantive rewards of ranking up make your top soldiers and their combinations extremely valuable. So you're forced to use your best guys as much as possible, risking to lose them every mission. And every mission, when you pick your guys, you see their rank, nickname and number of missions they survived. It's a constant combination of substantive and reflective reinforcement. Sequel also added teammate bonding (which, if the bonded soldier has been killed, still always shows on the other one's character, along with a debuff from psychological trauma) and medals mechanics. While the nature of mission combat means the chance to lose someone KIA is always there. All of which is to say, the whole game is designed around you growing attached to your soldiers. And that nickname you only optionally give them yourself — that gets real emotional value over time. Only game where I've actually sat there cheering "yeea, you show 'em, Skeeter!" and full-on taking a break to process Maj. Skeeter demise. It's a small thing, the nickname mechanic, but it has the weight of all other substantive mechanics behind it. RIP Skeeter, you were a beast with that shotgun.

The Bigoron Sword from Zelda OOT. You can buy one, but it keeps breaking, so gives you a taste of its strength but you are gutted when it breaks. You then go on an adventure with the better bigoron giant blacksmith to make you a true bigoron sword that doesn't break. Stuck with me for 20+ years

If you are not engendering the feeling that something awesome may drop at any moment, but instead "you have to do this annoying, repetitive task and you have a 1/8000 chance of getting something your build NEEDS", you have f***ked your loot system.

There's no misunderstanding. From a corporate level. Micro changes and exclusivity keeps people grinding and paying for tiny things. It's akin to a gambling addiction for many and is cash on tap. The devs likely know these issues, they are told to make the game for a business model.

The reflective reward that has stuck with me comes from Chrono Trigger: at the Millennium Fair there's a shop where you can buy weapons, and one is way out of your price range, like more than ten times what you have at the time. I remember when I found that same item in a chest in a later part of the game and just marveled at how far I had come (it wasn't that far in the game, but it felt like a huge progression from). I felt like Chrono, remembering that time not so long ago when he was so much less experienced, more innocent even.

Terraria is a great example of that reset of juxtaposition gratification - right when you start feeling like you could take on anywhere on the map pretty easily it hits you with that hard mode reset.

Borderlands has a glimpse of a clue. They still focus too much on numbers, but legendary effects are just so much more fun because of their nonsense effects. Elden Ring has the best clue because all the weapons are viable when upgraded and they're all unique.

>no Kitchen Gun Dropped. Devs fix this.

One additional point that's quite important to satisfaction is the type of reward. A reward that gives your character a new mechanic or a new way of playing is substantially more engaging than a reward that is just, say, +2 damage, even when +2 damage might arguably be objectively better. In TTRPGs for instance, I've noticed for most players that picking up an axe with a unique enchantment or ability is much more engaging than getting a '+1 axe', even though, if they were in a shop, they'd probably buy the +1 axe over the unique one just because it's bonus is more consistently useful. Over a game, or a TTRPG campaign, gradually building up a suite of equipment that creates a highly unique and personalised playstyle is very engaging. It also allows upgrades to be dispersed among side-grade loot that gives the player an engaging decision (whether to pick up and change their playstyle, or sell and keep what they have) rather than immediately being dismissed it as vendor trash. Finally there's also giving players an emotional and story-driven attachment to their loot. The axe they prised from the bandit queen's cold dead fingers - having just been on the receiving end of the full force of its power - is always going to be more loved than one they found in a box after she was dead. Needless to say, the Souls games are a masterclass in both of these techniques.

One of the most infuriating quest chains versus reward was what used to happen in Destiny 2 (it may still do, but I don't play it anymore). For certain legendary/exotic weapons, you'd have to complete an array of challenges for which the weapon you were in pursuit of would've been by far the most optimal to achieve them. Of course, once you gained the weapon, the challenges were no longer available to you and would then often feel perfunctory as a result

Incredibly accurate. People want build defining loot not incremental increases you dont notice.

I like what BG3 did. Simple item in a shop, a spear that returns to you when thrown. A moment of thought and “Wait I found like three items that buff throwing and also saw a Feat that does too when I leveled up.” Lightbulb moment, followed by “What else can I throw” and “What other item combos are there?” Suddenly loot isn’t numbers or buffing what you’re doing, its entirely new gameplay being unlocked as you hold onto stuff and look for synergies later.

I do think the first borderlands found a nice balance with their legendary drops. I actually came into the series with the second game. And actually finding out that the drop rate were higher in Borderlands 1 made me appreciate it more. Then again i can flip the coin and say that when you actually get a legendary in borderlands 2 its more rewarding. Its not easy pleasing us gamers.

So many games only have an equipment system in the first place because they can't think of something more interesting to put in it's place.

Hands down my favourite Second Wind series, always watch as soon as I get the notification!

Warframe has an interesting reward system where the central progression (a player's Mastery Rank) is increased by leveling up new weapons and classes. Literally any of them, as long as the player hasn't gotten them to Level 30 before. Every new weapon, even extremely weird ones, grant this progression. The result is that players are encouraged to find and try EVERYTHING, rather than simply seek the most powerful gear. Sometimes, they'll find that they really liked one of the weirder options and keep it, investing resources into powering it up. But even if they didn't appreciate the weapon at all, the time they spent experimenting with it wasn't a waste, because they still got progression XP out of it. This also allows the designers to create weapons that play and function differently rather than feeling forced to just put bigger numbers on.

My favorite rewards in games would have to be like the named magic weapons from the old Icewindale and Baldur's Gate games. They came with a short written backstory for the weapon. Even when they became obsolete as better equipment came along I was always loath to get rid of them and would keep as many with me as I could.