How Dune destroys Determinism

I had no choice but to watch a video about Determinism and Dune.

Fremen performing the sandwalk to prevent detection by the sandworms as a metaphor for the evolution of humankind to avoid detection by prescience. I like it 😄

The novels written by Frank touch on this near the end. One of the sisters, I can't recall who as it has been years, laid out that maybe the clairvoyant leader can't see the future but rather can see what is so completely that they can create the future which matches Leto's goal. If there are those who are outside of the vision that allows such control then such control can never be so complete as to dictate the future entirely, there is always that unknown element that can change the tides. Leto's goal was to make sure mankind could never fall to such tyranny as his again.

In Dune: Messiah, it's described how individuals with prescience are actually more or less blind to the activities of other prescient figures. The conspiracy against Paul uses a powerful Guild Navigator to mask the outcomes of their meetings. This means that a prescient character can essentially see everybody else following their deterministic path, but because other oracles are acting on information from the future they are not bound by determinism and therefore their paths become much more challenging to follow. In Messiah we also meet a dwarf who has some sort of mutation that grants foresight - Paul is not able to see that character's path. I've always assumed that Leto II's breeding program was in part leveraging something like that - building up a genetic line that could pass a minor foresight mutation throughout the human genome. Also a bonus detail: the conspiracy in Messiah attempt to subtly block Paul's visions by seeding the markets in Arrakeen with copies of a new tarot deck. Basically they hope to add more randomness to the decision-making of the population. They hope that this might seed enough variability that Paul's prescience becomes fuzzy.

So in short, the entire Dune saga has an underlying thread of "Could a Laplace Demon create a factor that, beyond its creation, even the Demon couldn't predict?" That's actually kind of a mind bender when you stop to think about it

knowing the future which has horrible outcomes for so many billions of people but also knowing that's the only way forward for the survival of the species is much more of a curse than a gift

Excellent video. The Butlerian Jihad is the last desperate reaction against near extinction. That is a very clear example of "Generational Scarring" and sociological conditioning. The gut reaction against machines is very clear in all the 6 books.

Probably my favorite thing about dune is that in order to 'win' the protagonist had to the badguy. Paul couldn't do it. His own humanity stoped him. And Leto II could only do it because as a pre-born he had the collective memories of all of his ancestors. He had the context needed to realize that it was the only way for humanity to survive.

I put Dune right next to Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, the novels by Sartre and Camus and other major examples of deeply philosophical works in the form of fiction. It’s just so rich, so elaborated, so accomplished as a philosophical inquire that I think it’s crazy it isn’t studied in literature classes and there are so few in-depth analysis of it

I reread (listened) all the dunes over this year. One thing that I recall here is that Paul and Leto II admitted that they can't 'see' the future, rather they select one from the many paths. Like picking a colour from the rainbow or infinite possibilities. The one Leto picked was the only path that led to human survival. This implied free will. Determinism implies we are just actors playing out our roles and that clearly didn't happen in the books. NOTE : I liked the philosophy so much that I had to stop and think often what Frank was saying.

As much as i love that Brian Herbert carried on his father's Legacy with the later Dune books, i sometimes wonder what it would have been like if Frank Herbert wrote those last few novels, as the idea that thinking machines were the Great Enemy was sorta a piecing together or Frank's notes and Brians own ideas

A man can do what he will, but he cannot will what he wills - Schopenhauer Paul and Leto II both saw the Golden Path and they themselves knew how it ends, you could argue that itself was determined but yeah Siona's no-gene was basically the gift of escaping causality (Even though Leto 100% had manipulated her into assassinating him, my friend thinks he didn't know Siona was going to kill him, that was her *purpose*, Leto spends 3500 years knowing the Golden Path cuts to black and he creates a creature that can slip into the shadows beyond his prescience...) So I'm not sure if even Siona even has free will or just that Leto created a large enough blind spot in causality that they can hide in there, I think the only character that showed true will in the whole dune saga was Paul when he denied the Golden Path, so literally the Kwisatz Haderach. Free will does exist, it's just fucking hard - Dolores, Westworld

Didn't Paul have free will though ? He chose not to take the Golden Path, not because he couldn't but he did not want to pay the price. Knowing that his son would have to bear the burden. It's been a very long time since I read the books, but as I understood, it was like after Paul got blinded by the attempt on his life (which he could have avoided). After that he could see that (while technically blind) if he'd move forward he'd fall into a canyon for example (I'm simplifying here). He could choose to either go left or right (or actually fall into the canyon if that is what he desires). Not knowing what would be there until he had gone either way, then seeing what would be ahead in whatever direction he had chosen. For the golden path it would mean that it was a clear way to follow all the way to the end in order to save humanity (from this one specific threat). But only because 'left' and 'right' of it was uncertainty. Basically falling into the canyon knowing that you'll be breaking your legs but it's like a green valley , your legs will heal and in the end all is good. While left and right might have been, probably, much worse outcome. So in this case breaking you legs is the prefered option because you know it ends well. Don't know if this makes any sense, I'm not native english speaking, it's pretty late, a lot of heavy books.. and I actually do like your explanation a lot. Good job, packing that into a 20 minute presentation.

i clicked on this video because i binge-watched every Dune analysis on youtube and this video was on the list

If you really want to get into it Paul wasn't technically the KH his son was. Paul was the closest they'd gotten but he only had future sight not ancestral memory.

This was epic. The best commentary on Dune that I have ever seen. Incredibly thought provoking.

This is the best VOD I've watched on the deeper themes running through the Dune saga. Thank you. Informative and thought-provoking content while maintaining a well-edited and non-overwhelming style.

I am impressed. Well written. Well produced. Well edited. Pleasing VO. Well done, sir! Thank you for your hard work

The right question is not if i choose freely or not, it is: does it matter?

Leto II just evolved ADHD humans all over again.