The Great Radahn Debate

Radahn said "Over my dead body." and Miquella was like "Deal." But, in seriousness, I think it most likely that Radahn originally agreed to be Miquella's consort, but after some sort of personal change, Radahn changed his mind. Perhaps he came to realize what a monster Miquella truly is after he'd already made the promise. To clarify: Miquella is a monster. Not because he is violent, brutal or cruel; But because he has not only the power, but the desire to rob people of their free will. He would see the world made into a prison, peaceful and gentle, free of strife because its inhabitants are not allowed to think for themselves. A world without struggle or challenge to make its people stronger.

In the final cutscene, when Miquella talks to a void, I interpreted this as a symbolic representation that he was alone in his plans and goals, and Radahn not showing up there was meant to show that he is not a willing part of Miquella's plans. But it could be solely to make it as vague as possible.

The halted stars might have a lot to do with this. Sellen makes it plain that the fate of the Carian royal family is determined by the stars, and Radahn is no less Carian than Ranni. Maybe he made the promise, then halted the stars and his fate, rendering fulfillment impossible. He essentially becomes caught in an ontological catch-22 where he needs to release the stars to fulfill his destiny, but his halted destiny is also to release the stars. Then there’s his loyalty and profound resistance to change - he’s clinging to Sellia, Leonard, his men, and the glory of the old Order. He easily could have had a change of heart about beginning a new age even without celestial f*ckery

St. Trina's message gets ignored so much in this debate and it's wild to me. I feel like they're clearly signalling that Miquella's ascension is meant to be seen as a tragedy. One she wishes for you to free him from. He IS kind hearted and with the best of intentions, but because of the curse of his ever youthful nature, he's naive. He doesn't see that to achieve godhood would be to lose everything that would make his era of gentleness come true. That he would be imprisoning himself, as his mother did before him. And if we look at it that way, couldn't that too explain a change of heart in Radahn? That he would resist becoming consort in order to save Miquella from this fate? Holding back the stars to keep him from divesting himself of his compassion and becoming this shell of himself? Sacrificing himself to try and achieve an impossible goal? Everyone keeps trying to characterize this as an egomaniacal trip of him wanting to enslave the world, but in the game they repeatedly speak of it as him trying to take the first great sin into himself so as to absolve the world and make it a better place. He's ready and willing to ruin himself on the chance of fixing what was wrong with the last order. And a Radahn that promised to be his consort, that believed in that initial vision, and that perhaps even loved him would be against once he realized the full ramifications. 🤷🏾 Seems more fitting to me with the bittersweet view of things Fromsoft usually like to use in their story telling. The foolishness of hope and desperation. Re-lighting the flame even though you know it will die down again and pain is always unavoidable.

I'm of the opinion that Radahn willingly made the promise back when Miquella was still firmly an Erdtree supporter. During the period when Miquella was studying Erdtree Fundamentalism and before he abandoned it for not providing a way to cure Malenia. Its important to remember that Miquella in the DLC was not pursuing the "correct" path of a golden order empyrean. Like Ranni he was abandoning his flesh to free himself from the two finger's influence. I think once Radahn learned that Miquella planned to replace the golden order and not preserve it. He refused to go along with the plan and renounced his promise, which is why Malenia had to invade Caelid to enforce the vow.

I’m team Theory 3. That Radahn consensually agreed at first, but changed his mind. And I think it’s because Miquella became disillusioned with his intentions. Here’s my timeline of events. -All the demigods are doing their thing under Marika’s golden order. They’re all one big family so they all know each other well enough. Which means Miquella and Radahn knew each other well enough for Miquella to admire him for his strength and heart. -Miquella and Malenia are easily the youngest demigods, and as the youngest, Miquella has a perspective into the Golden Order that he just doesn’t like. If Marika can’t get it right then he will do better. But one can’t just become the god they need a consort too. So he chooses Radahn because of how much he admires him already. -Miquella strikes up the vow, we don’t know what it says, but Radahn says yes to become Miquella’s consort. -Miquella learns all he can, and formulates a plan to ascend to Godhood without the permission of the Greater Will, given that it is at the center of Marika’s crappy rule. He learns of the Land of Shadow and more importantly, of the Gates of Divinity there. If he can reach them he can ascend to Godhood WITHOUT the strings of the Greater Will attached. -Though there’s one problem. Miquella can’t become a powerful god with his cursed body. So he decides to kill two birds with one Mohg. Cure himself of his affliction and access the ancestral home of the omen, the Land of Shadow. He probably realized his curse has something to do with his blood. So he also plants the Haligtree with his own blood to A, ditch enough of his blood to make room for newer, unaffiliated blood, and B, develop a cult following of worshippers mostly comprised of those scorned by the Erdtree/Golden Order and with nobody else to turn to. The Haligtree shall serve as both the means to rid himself of his affliction, and as the anchor for which his influence in the Lands Between shall spread. -Radahn knows about Miquella’s plan to shamelessly exploit Mohg, and it doesn’t sit right with him, he realizes Miquella is becoming more and more crazy, so he wants out of this deal. The problem is, one can’t just break a vow, it’s not easy or pretty. So he finds a loophole that allows him to stop the clock on his promise. Royals of Caria have their fates intertwined with the movement of the stars so he uses his gravity magic to stop all the stars in place to delay the time for the vow to be fulfilled. -Miquella finds out and is pissed. He’s about ready to launch the Mohg part of his plan he can’t have his consort get cold feet. So he decides to kill 3 birds with 1 Mohg instead. Mohg’s additional purpose? To act as the vessel for Miquella’s consort. Radahn lost his nerve and Mohg’s body is already under Miquella’s control. Miquella is sure Radahn will learn to see things his way again, once his soul is within Mohg’s body. First, he needs Malenia to break Radahn’s spell so he can become his consort. By killing him. His sister obliges. But Radahn is too Op and the battle ends in a stalemate. -The vow is still compromised. Malenia is down for the count. And now, Radahn has lost all sense of self and reason. Can things get any worse? Spoiler alert. They can, because Mohg picked the worst time possible to execute Miquella’s orders. According to the plan, Malenia was supposed to assassinate the Lord of Blood during the rescue of her brother, but she has no strength left after the Battle of Aeonia. Miquella’s vision was supposed to go so smoothly, but now, the Empyrean was trapped in eternal sleep, his consort a mad dog, and his sister shadow battered and bruised. His plans had officially failed. -Or have they? One day, one of the Lord of Blood’s most trusted Zealots, White Mask Varre, brings word to his lord, of a Maidenless Tarnished with loads of potential to bleed. Varre incidentally points us in the direction of Miquella’s two loose ends, and us, being the badasses that we are defeat Radahn and Mohg, allowing Miquella to resume his plans again. Mohg’s body, and Radahn’s soul in hand. -Now in the land of Shadow, Miquella slowly divests himself of everything that makes him mortal. His body, his emotions, his empathy. At this point, he is in the game too deep. Now nobody can reach him to change his mind, not Radahn, not even his other half St.Trina. -Finally, Miquella reaches the gates of Divinity, and becomes a god, he revives his King Consort, who has now seen the light. Now, has everything he needs to build his new order, but all he sees now is the vision of his divine rule. He says he will build a thousand year voyage based on kindness, but that kindness is now a fabrication built for emotional tyranny. Burt Miquella cannot see that now, he has essentially trapped himself and Radahn in delusions of Godhood, and only we, the tarnished can save them. Maybe I missed some details but that’s how I choose to interpret it. Miquella isn’t evil, but he is more like Marika than he’d care to admit. He allowed dreams of Godhood to cloud his heart, and lost sight of what real compassion was, in the name of the “peace” he would usher in as a new god.

I dont think radahn opened the gate. I think he was about to go red, like godfrey when he kills serosh, but miquella comes out and forces his ego on him and gets on his back like serosh was. I think we never get the chance to see true radahn 😢

“Promised” sounds a lot like the promise was made for him, like a how royals would do in the Middle Ages, and then the shattering happened and Radhan didn’t have to anymore

I saw some discourse on twitter suggesting that Godwyn was Miquella's first choice as consort. Given the evidence in the base game of Godwyn's loving/protective relationship with Melania and Miquella i like this theory and if its true and explains why Miquella tried so hard to resurrect Godwyn's soul and give him a true death so he could be reborn as Miquella's consort in the Shadow Lands. And then when MIquella ultimately failed he turned his sights on Radahn. I think Radahn may have initially agreed bc of the prospect of glory in battle that would come with installing Miquella as the new god, but eventually went back on his word when the Elden Ring was shattered giving Radahn the ability to fight his own war to become Elden Lord of the Order he venerated so much.

The serious tone then “it was Melanias way of saying ‘MIQUELLA SENDS HIS REGARDS!’” Cracked me up so bad Omg-

I think initially Radahn agreed willingly, because Miquella seems worried that Radahn will honour his part of the arrangement. If Radahn had been charmed, then Miquella wouldn't be worrying. I don't know what made him change his mind, but perhaps he didn't. In the intro we are told that the demigods were corrupted by the Runes, maybe said corruption make him more of a Warmonger.

the way i see it, i think Radahn never agreed to the vow to begin with. I think it justifies why malenia and him fought (miquella had ordered his death to send him to the land of shadows). i think radahn"s title of promised consort is simply that of miquella's desires (how he wants it to be). granted this is mostly just my headcanon but something to keep in mind as food for thought is the starscourge sword monument, specifically the japanese translation where it says that radahn had become sellia's defender/protector. even if he did at one point make such a vow to miquella he had deemed his new loyalties to sellia more important. also while it is true that radahn did admire his father and godfrey, for what reason did he admire them for? i believe it was for their prowess as great warriors and champions. in the end radahn is a man who wanted (from how i understand it) to be remembered as a great warrior of godfrey and radagon's caliber and a man of honor, he went out of his way to learn gravity magic for leonard, had a close "brotherly" bond with gaius and messmer and chose to become sellia's protector. while he may have had the ambition to become elden lord, i think he placed his personal bonds over that ambition. Sorry for the rambling, hope it warrents some thought from everyone.

"Promised" does a lot of heavy lifting. Who made the promise? Was it a prophecy? Radian? Marika? In some cultures, parents can promise a child's hand in marriage. Priests and prophets promise eternal salvation. In elden ring, characters can take on the guise of others. And that's before we consider that Radhan could have made a promise to be Miquella's consort when a younger Miquella asked - placating a child he never imagined would become a god - like an Uncle promising a nephew who said he wanted to live on Mars when he grew up, that they'd live there together. There's a lot of ambiguity inherent in the phrase.

There's a 6th theory I've seen floating around. This theory is based on Radahn's inability to let go, his love for battle and his honor as a warrior. The theory goes that Radahn did not agree to the vow and it was Malenia who promised to deliver Radahn to the land of shadow; The word she whispered into his ear meaning "I've delivered you to Miquella". This would explain the battle, and why she nuked the whole area. But she ultimately failed to kill him, and it was ultimately the tarnished that took him out. Here's where his honor comes into play; Radahn, knowing that you were aiming to be the next lord figured that you would be in opposition to Miquella, and he was upset that he got killed when he wasn't at full power thanks to Malenia. So he willingly went with Miquella's plan, taking Mohg's body in order to face you one on one without handicaps. When the phase 2 cutscene start sand Radahn's aura shows up he isn't activating the gate. Radahn is upset that he's losing even at full power, which is when the gate activates and Miquella appears. You then see the read aura change to Miquella's golden light, which is the moment Miquella took control of Radahn. Radahn wanted an honorable duel with you til the end, but Miquella needed him alive and likely did not care about the duel nor honor, he just needs you dead and therefore took control of Radahn to force his help upon him. We know Miquella is still able to charm people via his grab attack despite his great rune breaking, and this theory also satisfies the themes of the characters well; Radahn is a noble warrior that doesn't like change and wishes for an honorable death, while Miquella has no problem controlling whoever he has to in order to reach his goals.

I think Radahn also had a change in priority, remember, he was "Starscourge Radahn" his focus was holding back the stars, not becoming the consort of an Empyreon. He was ensuring outer beings would not interfere in the lands between, as they are known to do. Miquella was also firmly against divine intervention from outer beings, but Miquella ran out of options and believed the only way forward was his plan for godhood, of which Radahn likely disagreed, someone truly kind if its true to be said of Radahn, would not agree to a non consensual, apathetic utopia like Miquella wanted. He certainly would not appreciate being strewn together into a chimaira of himself and his half brother. No way he would ever approve of that.

I also really like your idea, that Radahn did agree to the vow but then retracted it because of many variables such as his Great Rune likely warding off Miquella's charms like it warded off Malenia's rot, Radahn's newfound ambitions after the shattering, and Miquella's abandonment of St. Trina his aspect of love.

I am on the side of saying he refused.

My theory is that Radahn agreed to Miquellas proposal under one condition, that Miquella or his champion best him in combat. I think this fits Radahns character well, because we know of his idolization of Godfrey. "A crown is warranted by strength" This would explain why defeating Radahn was so important to Malenia that she was willing to unleash the scarlet rot. We know that she spent her entire life trying to subdue the rot. What could be the only thing more important than that? Her dedication to Miquella.

Honestly it would make sense that Radahn never agreed to Miquella solely due to Mogh and Ansbach's relationship with Miquella. Ansbach hints that Mogh was vastly different before Miquella manipulated him, yes he still was the lord of blood, but that was without Miquella, so different that Ansbach himself felt compelled to fight Miquella to relinquish his lord off Miquella's control. Radahn may have had the same stance as Mogh, but was a lot stronger. Remember that Mogh during the start of the shattering had just came out of the sewers as the same time as Morgott his brother, while Radahn was already the Starscourge. Miquella's tactics would have never worked on Radahn as he was too proud of himself, and the fact that he would never align himself to Miquella on the first place with his adoration to Radagon and Godfrey. "Promised Consort" never meant that Radahn did agree to Miquella, and considering it is Malenia who is speaking, Promised Consort in her eyes is Miquella's desired consort, aka Miquella named Radahn as the promised consort, while Radahn never wanted anything to deal with his brother. Additionally, if we are to change the order of events, we can suggest that Radahn fought so hard against you during the festival to not die. Had it been before the realization that his soul would have been captured, Radahn would have accepted Malenia's scarlet rot as his death, but he's basically the only person to face tank lore-accurate Scarlet Aeonia and still be alive. We could also assume that the pact held by Jerren happens before Radahn realizes Miquella's plot, but the battle was already happening and his mind was too far gone to warn Jerren about the dangers of his death.

There is a lot of quotes and dialogue from Miq's perspective in this dlc: 'I abandon here MY etc', 'I am going to become a god, vow to be MY consort', 'Leave the path forward to us, to I Miquella and MY promised consort Radahn.' Miq comes off as a self centered control freak and during all of this we don't get a single Radahn line. Miq constructed a new body for Radahn yet he doesn't say a thing, meanwhile Miq loves talking. Seems like he didn't want Radahn to talk. Aside from all of this, the Malenia vs Radahn fight is possibly the most telling towards Radahn's feelings. Malenia barges onto his hometurf with an army and the resulting battle destroys all that Radahn holds dear. If it was an honorable duel to the death situation, they would have agreed on a 1 on 1 in a location where civilians would be safe from the 2 most powerful demigods fighting, you know the mountaintops of the giants, perhaps underground somewhere. Eventually Malenia resorts to a desperation move just to force Radahn to keep his vow AND even then, when he's crazy he holds the stars in place to keep his fate from progressing. Seems like he isn't that into Miquella.